Comment 1 by jteh on 2011-01-22 22:14
Urg. I suspect these aren't actually links in the traditional sense of the word, but they probably have an onClick attribute which runs script code. Brian, do they say clickable if you arrow to them with up/downArrow?

If we want to act like Firefox, we should also treat the presence of the onClick attribute as indicating that this is a link.
Changes:
Milestone changed from None to 2011.1

Comment 2 by briang1 on 2011-01-23 12:50
Hi there. Right, first of all, I have had time to test this on IE 8 as well and its the same.

Here is what I think is going on here. In the corrective action for spurious link indication the spurious indication of a link at these points was removed. it was this indication that made it look like it was working in 2010.2.
You can tell this is the case as to operate the actual link in all versions from 2010.2 to and including snap 4014, which was when the snap builder fell over, you need to cursor right or bring up the elements list to click the links. Tab does not work as they are not seen as links.
There is no clickable reported.

Here is a log fragment from 4014

IO - speech.speakText (11:54:20):
Speaking u'link Install Updates (0)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (11:54:21):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:21):
Speaking u'blank'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (11:54:22):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:22):
Speaking u'Select by Type'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (11:54:23):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:23):
Speaking u'listwith 4 items \u2022 link High Priority (0)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (11:54:24):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:24):
Speaking u'\u2022 link Software, Optional (5)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (11:54:28):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:28):
Speaking u'\u2022 link Hardware, Optional (0)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (11:54:32):
Input: kb(desktop):rightarrow
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:32):
Speaking u'out of link'
IO - speech._speakSpellingGen (11:54:32):
Speaking character u'space'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (11:54:33):
Input: kb(desktop):rightarrow
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:33):
Speaking u'link'
IO - speech._speakSpellingGen (11:54:33):
Speaking character u'H'
Note if this had been the link it would have spoken the text not nothing! However it seems...
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (11:54:42):
Input: kb(desktop):nvda+f7
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:42):
Speaking u'Elements List dialog'
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:42):
Speaking u'tree view'
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:42):
Speaking u'level 0 Hardware, Optional (0) 9 of 28'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (11:54:47):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (11:54:47):
Speaking u'Windows XP (4) 10 of 28'
..as if the link list sees past this non link and reads the text.

Here is the same for a current snap 4036

I've expanded the key pressings to show the elements list has no links for the missing ones and also to show on IE that the links do not register. They do work but nothing is spoken apart from their list info.

IO - speech.speakText (12:13:06):
Speaking u'\u2022 Software, Optional (5)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:08):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:08):
Speaking u'\u2022 Hardware, Optional (0)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:12):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:12):
Speaking u'out of list Select by Product'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:14):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:14):
Speaking u'listwith 8 items \u2022 Windows XP (4)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:29):
Input: kb(desktop):rightarrow
IO - speech._speakSpellingGen (12:13:30):
Speaking character u'space'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:31):
Input: kb(desktop):rightarrow
IO - speech._speakSpellingGen (12:13:31):
Speaking character u'W'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:32):
Input: kb(desktop):rightarrow
IO - speech._speakSpellingGen (12:13:32):
Speaking character u'i'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:33):
Input: kb(desktop):rightarrow
IO - speech._speakSpellingGen (12:13:33):
Speaking character u'n'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:33):
Input: kb(desktop):rightarrow
IO - speech._speakSpellingGen (12:13:33):
Speaking character u'd'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:44):
Input: kb(desktop):nvda+f7
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:45):
Speaking u'Elements List dialog'
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:45):
Speaking u'tree view'
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:45):
Speaking u'level 0 Install Updates(0) 5 of 15'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:50):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:50):
Speaking u'Review your update history 6 of 15'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:55):
Input: kb(desktop):downarrow
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:55):
Speaking u'Change settings 7 of 15'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:57):
Input: kb(desktop):uparrow
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:57):
Speaking u'Review your update history 6 of 15'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (12:13:57):
Input: kb(desktop):uparrow
IO - speech.speakText (12:13:57):
Speaking u'Install Updates(0) 5 of 15'

If its of any use this snap looks like this when cursored onto the hardware link.

INFO - globalCommands.GlobalCommands.script_navigatorObject_devInfo (12:21:12):
Developer info for navigator object:
name: u'Microsoft Update'
role: ROLE_DOCUMENT
states: STATE_READONLY, STATE_FOCUSABLE
Python object: <NVDAObjects.IAccessible.MSHTML.Body object at 0x02361A50>
Python class mro: (<class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.MSHTML.Body'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.MSHTML.MSHTML'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IAccessible'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class 'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class 'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: None
location: (70, 176, 792, 466)
value: ''
appModule: <appModuleHandler (appName iexplore, process ID 2572) at address 23618b0>
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 328742
windowClassName: u'Internet Explorer_Server'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 1442840576
windowThreadID: 1804
windowText: u'\x00'
IAccessibleObject: <POINTER(IAccessible) ptr=0x1ac198 at 3fe5850>
IAccessibleChildID: 0
IAccessible event parameters: windowHandle=328742, objectID=None, childID=0
IAccessible accRole: STATE_SYSTEM_CHECKED
IAccessible accState: STATE_SYSTEM_READONLY, STATE_SYSTEM_FOCUSABLE, STATE_SYSTEM_VALID (1048640)

I did not do this for snap 4014, sorry, but 2010.2 looked like this.
INFO - appModules._default.AppModule.script_navigatorObject_devInfo (12:28:19):
Developer info for navigator object:
name: u'Microsoft Update'
role: ROLE_DOCUMENT
states: STATE_READONLY, STATE_FOCUSABLE
Python object: <NVDAObjects.IAccessible.MSHTML.Body object at 0x022E9B30>
Python class mro: (<class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.MSHTML.Body'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.MSHTML.MSHTML'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IAccessible'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class 'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class 'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: None
location: (70, 176, 792, 466)
value: ''
appModule: <_default (appName iexplore, process ID 2380) at address 2301fd0>
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 590990
windowClassName: u'Internet Explorer_Server'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 1442840576
windowThreadID: 1304
windowText: u'\x00'
IAccessibleObject: <POINTER(IAccessible) ptr=0x1a3bb0 at 22fee90>
IAccessibleChildID: 0
IAccessible event parameters: windowHandle=590990, objectID=4, childID=0
IAccessible accRole: STATE_SYSTEM_CHECKED
IAccessible accState: STATE_SYSTEM_READONLY, STATE_SYSTEM_FOCUSABLE, STATE_SYSTEM_VALID (1048640)

Interestingly, link is spoken on the first character of the word in 2010.2, hardware in this case, but its really hard to tell what its actually seeing as I said in my intro.

Any other tests I can do?
http://www.update.microsoft.com/microsoftupdate/v6/default.aspx?ln=en-us

But I suspect that only really works for XP and of course not in Firefox!

Comment 3 by jteh on 2011-01-23 13:24
In that case, I don't think we can consider this a bug on our side. They aren't really links at all, they aren't clickable, so there's nothing we can detect. The fact that they were detected as links previously was a bug. The fact that you can't even tab to them in IE makes an even stronger case for this.

Comment 4 by jteh on 2011-01-23 16:33
Changes:
Added labels: cantfix
State: closed

Comment 5 by briang1 on 2011-01-23 17:56
Hmm, not so sure.I've just discovered something very strange. Firstly, and I know this is probably pointless, Narrator calls these items links and can tab to them.
After some fiddling around, I found out that the art of getting to them with tab is NOT to use cursors to start with. When you do this in nvda. You go to the end of these special links and have to tab all the way around, or shift tab back to get there. If however, you do not tcursor at ll when in these links, you can indeed tab to them. The page is a huge mess of javascript and style sheets goodness knows what else to, presumably selectively display what you need to know.
I really cannot help more than that.

Changes:
Removed labels: cantfix
State: reopened

Comment 6 by briang1 on 2011-01-23 18:07
Oops, sent it before I was ready.
Here is the proof, but touch that cursor and your next tab is out of the list.

IO - speech.speakText (18:00:28):
Speaking u'Install Updates (0) link'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (18:00:30):
Input: kb(desktop):tab
DEBUG - queueHandler.isPendingItems (18:00:30):
pending events in eventQueue: False
IO - speech.speakText (18:00:30):
Speaking u'listwith 4 items High Priority (0)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (18:00:32):
Input: kb(desktop):tab
DEBUG - queueHandler.isPendingItems (18:00:32):
pending events in eventQueue: False
IO - speech.speakText (18:00:32):
Speaking u'Software, Optional (5)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (18:00:35):
Input: kb(desktop):tab
DEBUG - queueHandler.isPendingItems (18:00:35):
pending events in eventQueue: False
IO - speech.speakText (18:00:35):
Speaking u'Hardware, Optional (0)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (18:00:37):
Input: kb(desktop):tab
DEBUG - queueHandler.isPendingItems (18:00:37):
pending events in eventQueue: False
IO - speech.speakText (18:00:38):
Speaking u'out of list listwith 8 items Windows XP (4)'
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (18:00:46):
Input: kb(desktop):nvda+f1
INFO - globalCommands.GlobalCommands.script_navigatorObject_devInfo (18:00:46):
Developer info for navigator object:
name: u'Microsoft Update'
role: ROLE_DOCUMENT
states: STATE_READONLY, STATE_FOCUSABLE
Python object: <NVDAObjects.IAccessible.MSHTML.Body object at 0x0239C890>
Python class mro: (<class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.MSHTML.Body'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.MSHTML.MSHTML'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IAccessible'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class 'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class 'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: None
location: (70, 176, 792, 466)
value: ''
appModule: <appModuleHandler (appName iexplore, process ID 3420) at address 2374070>
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 393542
windowClassName: u'Internet Explorer_Server'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 1442840576
windowThreadID: 2636
windowText: u'\x00'
IAccessibleObject: <POINTER(IAccessible) ptr=0x1ad688 at 234f3f0>
IAccessibleChildID: 0
IAccessible event parameters: windowHandle=393542, objectID=4, childID=0
IAccessible accRole: STATE_SYSTEM_CHECKED
IAccessible accState: STATE_SYSTEM_READONLY, STATE_SYSTEM_FOCUSABLE, STATE_SYSTEM_VALID (1048640)

Comment 7 by jteh on 2011-01-23 18:09
The links you originally reported as not being links in the User Guide would also report as links with Narrator. The problem here is that IE reports things as links that it shouldn't report as links. This is another one of those cases. It just so happens that this particular case was a benefit rather than a problem before we implemented the work around to ignore the incorrect links.

Now, if they showed up as clickable, we could work around this one too, but they don't, so there's probably nothing we can do.

Do you have another screen reader you can test with (even if a demo)? Do they show up as links there?

Tech note: if they are in the tab order, maybe they're setting the tabindex attribute. Need to check this.

Comment 8 by briang1 on 2011-01-23 18:24
Hal can see them both in area virtual focus and normal focus tabbing, but the tabbing is just as odd. They do appear in the order on screen apparently from what I can tell.
The earlier versions of Dolphin software also works, so its not something different on Windows update recently.

Comment 9 by briang1 on 2011-01-23 18:40
While I'm about it some more tests.

Webbie output.

which seems to be able to see the links..

Link: Microsoft Update Home
Link: Install Updates (0)
Select by Type
Link: High Priority (0)
Link: Software, Optional (5)
Link: Hardware, Optional (0)
Select by Product
Link: Windows XP (4)
Link: Developer Tools, Runtimes, and Redistributables (0)
Link: Microsoft Security Essentials (0)
Link: Office Communications Server And Office Communicator (0)
Link: Office (0)
Link: Silverlight (0)
Link: SQL Server Feature Pack (0)
Link: Windows Live (1)
Options
Link: Review your update history
Link: Restore hidden updates
Link: Change settings
Link: FAQ
Link: Get help and support
Link: Use administrator options
Select High-Priority Updates
To help protect your computer against security threats and performance problems, we strongly recommend you install all high-priority updates.
Link: Review and install updates
Total: 0 updates , 0 KB , 0 minutes
High-priority updates
No high-priority updates for your computer are available. To select other updates, use the options to the left.
Link: Microsoft Update Privacy Statement
© 2011 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Link: Terms of Use |
Link: Trademarks |
Link: Privacy Statement

However, Web formater cannot it seems..

Page Microsoft Update http://www.update.microsoft.com/microsoftupdate/v6/default.aspx?ln=en-us ]
Frame 1 mstoolbar.aspx?ln=en-us ]
Link Quick Links | ]
Link Home | ]
Link Worldwide
Link Microsoft Search Microsoft.com for: ]
Edit ] Button Go ]
Frame 2 toc.aspx?ln=en-us ]
Microsoft Update Home ]
Link Review and install updates you've selected Install Updates (0)
Select by Type ]
High Priority ] (0) ] ]
Software, Optional ] (5) ] ]
Hardware, Optional ] (0) ] ]

Beta Software ]
(0) ]
]
Select by Product ]
Windows XP ] (4) ] ]
Developer Tools, Runtimes, and Redistributables ] (0) ] ]
Microsoft Security Essentials ] (0) ] ]
Office Communications Server And Office Communicator ] (0) ] ]
Office ] (0) ] ]
Silverlight ] (0) ] ]
SQL Server Feature Pack ]
(0) ] ]
Windows Live ] (1) ] ]
Options ]
Link Review your update history See all updates you've installed or tried to install
Restore hidden updates ]
Link Change settings See options for viewing and using this website
Link FAQ Get answers to frequently asked questions about updating your computer
Link Get help and support See how to get help or support for using this website
Link Use administrator options Find tools for updating networks

Find hardware support ]
Frame 3 Microsoft Update ]
Select High-Priority Updates ]
To help protect your computer against security threats and performance problems, we strongly recommend you install all high-priority
updates. ]
Only selected updates will appear the next time you check for updates. ]
Link Review and install updates View the updates you've selected, and start the installation process. Total: ] 0 updates , 0 KB , 0
minutes ]
High-priority updates ]
No high-priority updates for your computer are available. To select other updates, use the options to the left. ]
Frame 4 footer.aspx?ln=en-us ]
Link Microsoft Update Privacy Statement
© 2011 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. ]
Link Terms of Use | ]
Link Trademarks | ]
Link Privacy Statement

I'm saying nothing about IE seems to have some strange, features...

Comment 10 by jteh (in reply to comment 9) on 2011-01-23 18:47
Replying to briang1:

Webbie output.

which seems to be able to see the links..

And I'll wager it also sees links where there aren't really links in some cases, just like NVDA did before we fixed it. :) The User Guide ones may not show up, as they were empty, but there are ways to make those weird not-links not empty.

Comment 11 by briang1 on 2011-01-23 19:39
You are right the userguide is fine in webbie. I did have a couple of pages that did it, but I've no idea if they would have been empty either!

Comment 12 by jteh on 2011-02-04 06:55
I don't think there is anything we can do about this. From what you have reported, it seems they aren't really links, even though they were reported incorrectly as such before. Unfortunately, we have no way of debugging this further ourselves at this stage.

If a way can be found to distinguish these from other spurious links, this can be reopened. However, it probably won't be fixed for 2011.1.
Changes:
Milestone changed from 2011.1 to near-term
Added labels: cantfix
State: closed

Attachment links not being recognized by NVDA in some emails.eml added by briang1 on 2011-02-13 19:27
Description:

Comment 13 by jteh on 2011-02-16 02:53
This might be fixed by 9d23b46, which fixes the Windows Live Mail issue discussed on nvda-dev.

Comment 14 by briang1 on 2011-02-17 18:30
Yes, it does fix the issue in Windows Update/XP.
Also as you might imagine Outlook express has not issues with links now either, before it was apparently hit and miss whether they were spoken as links.

Changes:
Removed labels: cantfix
State: reopened

Comment 15 by mdcurran on 2011-02-18 05:20
Fixed in 9d23b46.
Changes:
State: closed

Comment 16 by jteh on 2011-02-20 20:11
Changes:
Milestone changed from near-term to 2011.1