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Report the Title Attribute on HTML lists and Tables #2137
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Comment 1 by jteh on 2012-03-01 22:19 |
Comment 2 by ragb (in reply to comment 1) on 2012-03-01 23:30
I don't know if it is any different in current browsers but at the time when I had sufficient sight to see that, when you passed the mouse over the element a tooltip appeared. For images it was the alt text but for other elements it was the title attribute. For tables the caption and such works better, I agree. But for lists many people use the title to convey the menu title. Some use an even huglier approach: using an invisible header for screen readers to read. We are talking about semantics here. If the screen reader speaks the invisible header for speaking a menu title (even if it does not apear to the sighted user) why not speak a title attribute? I'm not sayig that it is a good or bad approach of web designers, but it is done and has semantic meaning that may be of importance for users, at least in menus. Clearly HTML5 new semantic elements, ARIA and such are better, but we can't control webdesigners... Just for reference at least JAWS and VoiceOver have this behaviour for lists. I my opinion an option to report title attribute on list elements, configurable, would have good benefits, to report semantic information about a list goal, mainly for site menus. |
Comment 3 by jteh on 2012-03-01 23:39 |
Comment 4 by ragb (in reply to comment 3) on 2012-03-02 00:03
Yes, that's about it. With quick naviagtion makes sence to report the title, as it is done for form fields. But when navigating using the arrows what to do? It is strange to report one information with quick navigation and another (maybe less) when arrowing up and down... So I think the title must be also reported wen entering a list with the arrows. But I'm not sure, someone can come with an example where it does not make sence. |
Comment 5 by jteh (in reply to comment 4) on 2012-03-02 08:07
We already report more information for form fields when you use quick navigation, since quick navigation is more like focus and therefore more active inspection. If we always reported names and descriptions when using the arrows, there would be a lot of duplicate information because labels and descriptions are often part of the document content. |
Comment 6 by ragb (in reply to comment 5) on 2012-03-02 17:28
And it is right, I fully agree. Maybe I was not as clear as I wanted: for form fields this makes sence, that is, to report the name and descriptions only when using quicknav. When arrowing that information is most of the times reported since it is document content. However on the case of the title attribute it is not part of the document (is an attribute) so I think, that only in this case of lists, it should be reported also when arrowing and not only when using quick navigation. For other elements with title attributes I'm not sure what to do though. Regards, Rui |
Comment 7 by ragb on 2012-03-02 20:41 http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2010/11/using-the-html-title-attribute/ |
Comment 8 by jteh (in reply to comment 6) on 2012-03-06 04:41
See comment:3 regarding active inspection. Querying the list using object navigation makes this equivalent to the experience for users not using a screen reader. Leaving this open to fix the quick navigation case. |
Comment 9 by peter on 2012-07-19 11:29 |
Comment 10 by peter on 2012-07-19 12:52 |
@jcsteh Since you were deliberating on this issue as seen in earlier comments, could you also please respond to the thoughts expressed in #2137 (comment) and #2137 (comment)? |
Those two comments don't provide any test case, so we don't have sufficient detail to make a diagnosis. Regardless, it sounds like a separate issue which would need to be addressed separately. |
@jcsteh, @feerrenrut, any updates on this topic? I cannot really see a consensus here if this should be implemented in NVDA or not. Actually it would be helpful on complex websites but I am not so sure if there are many web developers who implement such titles consistently. Comments are appreciated. |
Reported by ragb on 2012-03-01 14:54
The title attribute is used to add semantic information important in lists and tables. For instance the following pattern is commonly used to report the menu title for screenreader users:
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