Comment 1 by jteh on 2013-04-30 22:30
Table navigation in general is covered in "Navigating with the System Caret". However, it's not clear that a list view is considered a table. I'm not sure how we should document this because not all lists are tables and there's no non-technical way to determine which ones are.

Comment 2 by Bernd on 2013-05-01 12:14
May we could simply write something like:

The table commands are working in the folderviewlists and mozilla documents.

So we'd have the most working places.

Comment 3 by jteh on 2013-05-01 12:24
If you mean Explorer folder view, that's not actually true in Windows 7, which has a very different folder view, so we can't write that.

Comment 4 by Bernd on 2013-05-05 20:57
In this case we should note a few example where this works.

It's important because some users are still downloading the globalplugin provided in ticket 828 which has been converted into an addon.

CC @Qchristensen and other documentation specialists to kindly request thoughts/inputs on this documentation related ticket.

I would only say something like following:
"some lists support also table navigation commands. In general these are lists with multiple columns like in Windows Explorer on Windows 10. Note that not all kind of lists support table navigation commands due to different design approaches used by developers.".

Assuming that the user manual is primarely ment to show beginners how NVDA works, we should not include UIA or ListView details in it. In my view such a short paragraph would be enough. @josephsl what do you think? If it's ok I can raise a pull request.

@josephsl Since we are now at version 2020.1, this is a friendly reminder to provide an update to #3193 (comment).

Apologies for not commenting earlier. I agree with @Adriani90's comment about adding a note to the effect of: "some lists support also table navigation commands. In general these are lists with multiple columns like in Windows Explorer on Windows 10. Note that not all kind of lists support table navigation commands."

It gives one common example. I was in two minds about even needing the second sentence, but it does make it clear it doesn't work everywhere.

"some lists support also table navigation commands. In general these are lists with multiple columns like in Windows Explorer on Windows 10. Note that not all kind of lists support table navigation commands."

The problem with this statement is the fact that lists with multiple columns on Windows 10 does not support this way of navigation, and using the control which does not support it as an only example does not seems to be a good idea.

What build of Windows 10 are you using @lukaszgo1? In 1903 and 1909 I can use CONTROL+ALT+ARROWS in the file list in Windows Explorer. If that has changed in 2004 then definitely we shouldn't include it. Otherwise have we got good examples of what lists we ARE talking about here?

@Qchristensen Sorry for the confusion. @XLTechie Is correct here - while ctrl+altarrows works in these lists these are just moving to different columns not utilizing NVDA's columns navigation.

That's true, you can just use the arrow keys in file explorer, although you can also use CONTROL+ALT+ARROWS. Whether that uses NVDA's table navigation or not is irrelevant to a user (who will just notice whether it works or not - it works the same without NVDA running so you are right, we don't add anything there to change the navigation experience).

So, back to the original issue - has anyone got an example of a common list where NVDA's table navigation works that we should consider documenting as per the original suggestion? Otherwise we can close this I think.

I didn't think the columns in Task manager were accessible? I can't access them using NVDA 2020.2 on either my 1903 machine or 2004 machine. Am I missing something?

Disk Manager is a valid example, but I would argue quite a specialised tool, and I'd rather not offer it as a suggested use case in the User Guide, where someone who may not know what it does but is trying to work out navigation commands decides to get into it to try out - ok such a user would likely have difficulty finding it to get into, but that's probably another reason to find a more "common" example.

I think the task manager example should be appropriate enough even for beginners.

Ok, well in 5.2, the table commands are introduced with:

When within a table, the following key commands are also available:

(then the table of commands).

We could either change that to:
When within a table, or some lists (including Disk Management, and Task Manager's "Details" page), the following key commands are also available:

Or, we could leave that as is, and include a line under the table (before 5.4 Object Navigation) saying something like:
These table commands also work in some lists, including Disk Management, and Task Manager's "Details" page.

Is it a details page, or is it a details tab or details view? I thought of it as a details tab, but not sure what the proper Windowsish terminology is.

To be honest, that is my concern - from the default view, you go to "More Details", and visually that shows what appears to be a table or grid, with all the open programs and processes, then going across to the right, information about the CPU, Memory, Disk and other usage the program currently is drawing. That is all inaccessible and you need to control+tab to the details view to get to the information in a grid which can be navigated using the table commands. But ideally, given the information is supposed to be about the table commands rather than navigating thought task manager, I was hoping for something we could say in one sentence.

So either details page or details tab - to be honest I'm not 100% sure which is preferred and I can't find a definitive answer in Microsoft's style guide:

Page refers to web pages and pages in a wizard: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/style-guide/a-z-word-list-term-collections/p/page

Tab refers to tabs in a dialog box, so maybe this one: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/style-guide/a-z-word-list-term-collections/t/tab

Hello

Some comments to this issue:

1. If the task manager's and the disk management example are valid, we also have many valid examples in NVDA itself: add-on manager, dictionaries and symbol dialog.
2. To be precise control+alt+arrows are not gestures that move the caret and thus the information regarding cell navigation in listview should not be put in "5.3. Navigating with the System Caret". These gestures are more object navigation, even if the vertical ones also move the focus. Thus this comment should land in a paragraph dedicated to complex/hybrid navigation. Or at least it should land in "5.4. Object Navigation", indicating that vertical movement not only move the navigator object but also the focus on the row where the navigator object lands.