Comment 1 by jteh on 2010-08-21 20:21
I personally find this concept pointless/confusing. We don't scroll to the top of the document when you press down arrow at the bottom, so why should quick navigation? At the very least, it should be configurable, which adds yet another configuration option. Unless someone can give me a really good reason for this, I'm tending towards a wontfix.
Changes:
Changed title from "Scrolling heading/links/land mark when has reached the bottom/top of the document" to "Wrap to top/bottom when quick navigation reaches the bottom/top of the document"

Comment 2 by RamboUdin on 2010-08-22 01:28
Hi,
the configuration should be made in NVDA.
That is great!

Comment 3 by jteh on 2010-11-26 01:05
See comment:1.
Changes:
Added labels: wontfix
State: closed

Comment 5 by blindbhavya on 2014-07-12 12:32
Hi.
I too feel the need of this feature.
Let me put my argument :
Our webpage has 100 headings

User will press h 100 times. On pressing h for the 101th time NVDA says no next heading. Since shift + h is foolish and impractical the user will press Ctrl + Home to go the start of the document and then press h to go the first heading. The user was just exploring the webpage.
A user would rarely want to stay on the same last heading instead of going back to the first one. So he or she has to perform two additional actions to go to the first heading. However, when there is a wrapping to top feature and the user goes back on to the first heading, he or she has to simply press Shift + h (if at all wanted which is very uncommon) to go back to the last heading.
Conclusion
Considering that there is a 50-50% of demand of both features:
Dislikers of the current state (no next heading) will have to perform two actions to go back to the first heading.
Dislikers of my desired state (wrapping to top) will only have to perform one action to come back on the last heading.
Therefore, I feel that many would benefit and very few would lose very little if the wrapping to top feature is implemented.
Also, if you like you can add a check box in the Browse Mode dialog box to toggle the wrapping to top feature on and off.

Comment 6 by jteh on 2014-07-13 01:32
This isn't a compelling argument given that it's pretty much universally accepted that down arrow, etc. doesn't wrap in documents.

Comment 7 by blindbhavya on 2014-07-13 06:34
Hi.
Down arrow may not wrapi in documents.
But in either Android or IOS or maybe both, swiping i.e. going to next item, and when the user reaches the last item it goes bck to the first one.
Technically, you may be right, but I think users have more experience and a developer should think himself in the place of a user.
Even if in most situations down arrow doesn't wrap then either, in their situation it is practical to not wrap.
Can you kind of post on the NVDA Dev list or NVDA users list about the view of users on the wrapping to top feature implementation?
Can you get a poll on the NVDA community project website or NV Access website about this feature?
As I mentioned in my last comment, dislikers of the wrap to top feature would need to perform only one action to get back on to the last heading, while dislikers of the current state would perform two actions to get on to the first heading.

Comment 8 by briang1 on 2014-07-13 08:45
Actually, most people do not use web content the same way they use word processor documents. I have often found myself wanting to wrap back to top or do a currsor up to go to the bottom, ok it sounds silly when you say it, but its actually easier if cursoring than moving your fingers to other keys to get there and then coming back again.
I'd also suggest a sound associated with it. A ding of a higher pitch for wrap to top, and a lower one to wrap to bottom.

Comment 9 by jteh (in reply to comment 7) on 2014-07-13 09:36
Replying to blindbhavya:

But in either Android or IOS or maybe both, swiping i.e. going to next item, and when the user reaches the last item it goes bck to the first one.

Not in iOS.

Technically, you may be right, but I think users have more experience and a developer should think himself in the place of a user.

I'm a developer and I'm also a full time user. Personally, I'd find this incredibly annoying; see below.

Even if in most situations down arrow doesn't wrap then either, in their situation it is practical to not wrap.

I'd argue it doesn't make sense to wrap. If I try to move to the next heading, I expect it to move forward, never backward. If I've reached the last one, I want to be told that so I can decide what to do, not completely lose my position. Perhaps what I'm looking for isn't marked with a heading, even though I was hoping it was. If it wraps, I've just lost my spot and have to go find it again. Wrapping takes the choice away from the user in favour of trying to guess what they want to do.

Furthermore, can you justify why quick navigation should be different to up and down arrow? Why should one wrap and the other not?

Comment 10 by blindbhavya on 2014-07-13 10:28
Hi.
My writing is not very convincing, I must admit but let me give another try.
1 You do not want the wrapping to top feature while I and some others want. So, there should be a choice. There should be a combo box or radio button somewhere in Browse Mode dialog box to choose whether the wrapping to top feature should be used or not. I think this can be definitely implemented and does not harm any user and gives choice/variety.
2 You say that wrapping makes the user lose his or her position. I don't agree with this point. The user can just press Shift + element letter to get back to their earlier position. Shift + element letter is by no means a keyboard command that can be called time consuming or annoying but beneficial for some (many according to me).
3 Sorry for my comment of a developer should think as a user. I highly appreciate your valuable contributions to develop this wonderful open source screen reader!
4 Probably wrapping to top is applicable for Android.
5 Furthermore, can you justify why quick navigation should be different to up and down arrow? Why should one wrap and the other not?
My writing is not very persuasive so I will leave priyam1 to answer to this question.
I feel that my first point is very valid because every user should have choice to decide how their web experience should be.
About priyam1's comment of an auditory indication for wrapping to top and bottom, I would like to say that in JAWS where there is no audio indication, I never found the need for the audio. However, I wouldn't mind the sound in NVDA.
BTW, can someone add my e-mail address to the CC of this ticket, so that I get updates directly to my Inbox?

Comment 11 by nvdakor on 2014-07-13 12:32
Hi,
Okay, I'd like to offer something to think about:
When we think about navigating the web using touchscreens and object navigation, wrapping to top doesn't make sense. In iOS, Android and in other touch environment, users would navigate the web using object navigation (certainly VoiceOver does this, and I assume Talkback does it as well). If a screen reader was to wrap around to the top of the document, the user may think that he or she is reading a single, continuous document without being alerted to the fact that the user has reached the end of the document (this will not make sense on a physical device like a touchscreen and from object navigation where the user is expected to land at the last element somewhere).
Second, what if say all with skim reading mode was in use? For example, suppose we're doing say all with skim reading turned on, and the user presses H for the next heading from the second to last heading. The user would press H to go to the last heading, and at the second press of the H key, NVDA would read from the top again, which is not a good implementation at all (say all reads from top to bottom, and is not designed to cycle back to top) from users' perspective.
Third, consider a Windows Store app with lots of headings (like a news channel app). If the wrap to top feature is implemented, this may confuse some users into thinking that these apps are webpages (in fact, they are shown as webpages but in fact they are not webpages; although screen readers would render these apps as webpages, internally they are completely different style of appps, hence NVDA treats them as applications). Many of these apps are best utilized using touch navigation, and for computers without touchscreens, mouse, which (I think) does not lend to wrapping to first instance of an element (Windows Store apps are for Windows 8.x).
Hope I didn't sound rude or too technical. Thanks.

Comment 12 by blindbhavya on 2014-07-13 14:02
Ok, you have put up a very reasonable argument.
So, can anyone test the situations mentioned with JAWS and how it behaves in those cases? If JAWS has some workarounds with those situations, could NVDA devs understand them and implement them ? I know that JAWS is not open source.
If workarounds are possible, then I will again put my point of choice for everyone.

Comment 13 by Brendon22 on 2014-07-16 19:38
Hello,

Thank you for your comments about this issue. Let me just point out that the MAC computers do have this function but it is not a default option. I would like to see this available but not as a default option. iOS doesn't have this and personally, I wish it did in some cases.

Comment 14 by blindbhavya on 2014-07-18 11:06
Yes, would be great if the user was presented with the choice.
P.S. If the devs do not have much time, then it is okay if this ticket is not commented on or this feature is not implemented, because I am getting used to a non-wrapping Internet browsing experience,